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            Baseball for the Thinking Fan

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            Baseball Primer Newsblog
            — The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

            Friday, August 24, 2018

            In this era of reboots, it was perhaps inevitable that Joe Posnanski would take another crack at the 100 greatest players in major league history. 

            The Baseball 100 is more than just a ranking system to me. The difference between my 78th ranked player and my 212th ranked player is so miniscule that it’s mathematically irrelevant. With one slight adjustment, I could have those two players switch places.

            Nearly all of the series is to be pay walled, but Zach Greinke is No. 100 on the list.

            In the original version of this list, I included a bunch of Negro leaguers — I can tell you that four were in my Top 20. I still believe this. But Negro leaguers will now be a major part of my corresponding Shadowball 100….It’s an eclectic list that includes players who are, in their own ways, larger than life.

            No. 100 on this list is Duane Kuiper.

             

             

            Rennie's Tenet Posted: August 24, 2018 at 08:01 AM | 970 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
              Tags: history, joe posnanski, joe posnanski top 100, reboots

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            Page 10 of 10 pages ‹ First  < 8 9 10
               901. Booey Posted: March 04, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 02:15 PM (#5928092)
            Flip
               902. taxandbeerguy Posted: March 04, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 02:22 PM (#5928095)
            Collins as a longer career - higher peak Alomar with way more season-to season consistency and way more walks might work. He's missing black ink in average and OBP because the AL is stacked with superstars in his prime (1909-1915). The only guys beating him him those stats are all inner-circle type guys, Cobb (just about every year), Speaker, Joe Jackson (not inner-circle, but could've been if not for the Black Sox), the end of Lajoie. The only other who beats him during his prime is one year of Sam Crawford - who while not quite the other guys, is a pretty easy Hall of Famer in any consideration set, if you cut the list in half then maybe there's a debate. Put him over in the national league and he's surely winning 2-3 batting titles at a minimum. The same 4-5 guys are the top 4-5 every single year.

            Jeter with plus defense and less power but more walks and a higher peak (i.e. many Jeter 1999 seasons with defense) is also a decent comp.

            His hit tool isn't quite like Boggs relative to era, but it's really not far off, if Boggs and Gwynn and Cobb are 10's, Collins is probably a 9+, Speaker more like a 9.5. He's very durable over a long, long career, only years his games dip are 1918 (war) and 1925 and 1926 (he's pushing 40). He's an OBP heavy OPS+ of 141 and has a plus glove at a middling position (second base doesn't really ramp up in difficulty until a little later) and all the little things, non-steals baserunning, steals, situational hitting add up over such a long career.

            Because of peak, durability and length of career, he's a cut above Clemente (only about 13 years of great play), Brett (some injuries, less season to season consistency) and Kaline (injuries in his 30's, less peak than Collins), Collins is a cut above. 124 bWAR is a monster total.
               903. taxandbeerguy Posted: March 04, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 02:23 PM (#5928098)
            Coke to Sweatpants for 899.
               904. Booey Posted: March 04, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 02:31 PM (#5928101)
            #902 - 124 WAR is indeed a monster total, which is why the fact that it doesn't even crack the top 5 amongst position players from his general era tells a lot about that time period compared to later eras.
               905. DanG Posted: March 04, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 02:40 PM (#5928107)
            Most Offensive WAR, age 36-40:

            Player         oWAR OPS+   PA From   To
            Barry Bonds    44.9  254 2495 2001 2005
            Babe Ruth      30.1  189 2392 1931 1935
            Ted Williams   28.3  186 2314 1955 1959
            'Eddie Collins 25.8  136 2589 1923 1927'
            Cap Anson      24.6  142 3041 1888 1892
            Willie Mays    24.3  141 2679 1967 1971
            Hank Aaron     23.8  160 2563 1970 1974
            Honus Wagner   23.1  128 2902 1910 1914
            Ty Cobb        22.2  139 2714 1923 1927
            Edgar Martinez 21.2  151 2864 1999 2003 
               906. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 04, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 02:42 PM (#5928108)
            #902 - 124 WAR is indeed a monster total, which is why the fact that it doesn't even crack the top 5 amongst position players from his general era tells a lot about that time period compared to later eras.

            Sure, so maybe you rate him more like a 100 WAR player. That's still inner circle.

            I also think in a literary endeavour, there's a lot more interesting stuff to read about the old-timers, and how the game was different. There's not much he's gonna write about ARod that we don't already know.
               907. Dr. Vaux Posted: March 04, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 03:13 PM (#5928122)
            This argument has so many problematic elements that I think it would take me about 45 minutes to respond properly.

            Next time I'm in Maine, I'll buy you a beer and give you the 45 minutes :-)


            Here are some thoughts put really briefly, in the form of a bulleted list (and by the way, snapper, email me if you're ever in the D.C. area, because I would very much like to have this conversation with you).

            * I personally think that asking for "as good as Beethoven" [my formulation and quotation marks; I don't want to set up the strawman of claiming someone proposed this] would be an awful lot to ask, since he would likely be the most common answer if you polled classical musicians on who they consider the greatest composer (maybe it would be Mozart or J.S. Bach; they'd be close, and any of them would be an awful lot to ask). But to be as good as Beethoven in the way Beethoven was, the composer's music would have to be significantly different not only from Beethoven's music, but significantly different from any music there had ever been previously (although perhaps not as significantly as some might overbid the situation to deem necessary--see Bach, who was more a synthesizer and perfecter than an innovator, per se).

            * Different situations call for different things, naturally, and there are infinite possible kinds of innovation as well as infinite possible possible pieces of music that someone would consider "good."

            * The rub is the criteria for "good" that the someone is using. By necessity, any kind of large-scale market for a thing depends on the judgment criteria of potential consumers, most of whom, also by necessity, aren't involved professionally in designing or producing the thing. What a consumer wants is for the item to work; to fulfill a perceived purpose. And in the case of any kind of music, that purpose, or at least a significant part of it, is, for want of a better term, enjoyment, although I was surprised at how many eyebrows were raised when I said to a graduate seminar something along the lines of, "it seems to me like what this whole constellation of activity boils down to is that we're doing this because we enjoy it; it entertains us." That "us" is important here, though--in that construction, it referred to those assembled, all of whom were professional musicians. That's why the eyebrows went up, because they thought I was talking about playing Mendelssohn's Wedding March for the millionth time, which they certainly do, but certainly don't do for entertainment--they do it for money, like anything else. But what they're doing for entertainment, considered largely, is being musicians in the first place. They're excited by music; they're drawn to it. That is to say, there is music they're excited by and drawn to.

            * And the seeds of a disconnect can hereby be seen to have been sown; the wedding guests want Mendelssohn's Wedding March, and quite understandably. It's nice music. Mendelssohn was a great composer. But the guests don't want Mendelssohn's Wedding March just because it's nice music, although I will maintain over the objections of some observers that that is a significant part of the reason why they want it. In addition to its being a nice piece of music, Mendelssohn's Wedding March possesses what could be called cultural associations. Because they've heard it in this context before, the guests respond to it in a particular way. For them, it exudes all the feelings they've gathered together to feel. It isn't anything in particular about the music--the notes on the page or the vibrations of the air they bring forth--that exudes those feelings. It's the associations and the expectations. They're the function of the product, and in this case, Mendelssohn's Wedding March is serving, and serving well, as a product. My students are supplying the product, and perfectly willingly, because they get paid. But they supply this particular product so often that they can be forgiven for no longer enjoying it. Omenica Greg could perhaps chime in here with some tales of the delicious items he frequently prepares but rarely eats.

            * In like fashion, when an orchestra plays a concert of old masterworks, the players are, in large part, doing something they've done many times, and they're for the most part not nearly as excited by it as they once were. The concertgoers, on the other hand, are very much getting the product they've paid to see and hear--which is not merely the particular vibrations of the air, but the associations conjured up by them. Those are vast and deep, and infinitely varied, but they can't be escaped. Some are sentimental, because they're personal. Some are perhaps somewhat superficial, such as the idea that one is being "exposed to culture," although that is certainly a description of what's happening.

            * I hope this doesn't sound arrogant. That's the farthest thing from what's meant. Of course these players, once again, are musicians in the first place because they love the old masterworks. The love is so much a part of us that we get, at the same places every time, the same warm tingles, the same chills, the same rushes of adrenaline. Any resentment of playing the same pieces again and again stems largely from the experience of having the repetition dull those sensations. I know some for whom they're completely gone, and that is precisely what they resent.

            * And so, different experiences lead to different reactions. Professionals, who play and think about music for a living, have a tendency--far from a universal tendency, but present significantly enough to have a strong effect--to feel, after all these playings and hearings of pieces that have been around for generations, that even a new piece in an old style is something like a repetition. It's a repetition, if not of exact sequences of sounds, of tropes and gestures. The old styles are well-understood. Almost every classical musician, let alone any composer, has spent hundreds of hours analyzing these pieces note-by-note, particle-by-particle. Many doubt that they could, but most could, if they put their minds to it, write at least a passable four-movement composition in 18th-century style or 19th-century style. I reiterate with all sincerity that anyone who has made a career as a composer in the 21st or 20th centuries is capable of composing a truly good piece in such a style. In fact, almost all of them have done it as part of their training. Many composers would rather write a piece that tries new things, not yet understood things, that many hearers will perceive as "bad"--that might even be bad, if there can be an objective sense of such a thing--than re-plow the same field again and again.

            * Some of the experiments fail and some succeed, some are along more conservative lines and others more radical, but the drive is to experiment, at least in personal terms. Speaking of personal terms, I am myself, as I previously indicated, on the side of a possible spectrum of belief with regard to such matters that is open to the possibility that even quite conservative, seemingly old-fashioned new music is different from what anyone else would have done simply because it is by a different person, and that if a new piece of music seems to have weight and significance, then it does, even if one could conceive of its having been written in the past. A spectrum has two extremes, however, and there are also those who feel, for the reasons described above, that if a piece really could conceivably have been written in the past, then it isn’t significant as a new one.

            * That gets back to the initial statement in my earlier post. Not only can we teach a human to compose in the style of Beethoven, we can program a computer to do it. So well understood is late 18th-century and early 19th-century style that composition in it can be automated. I myself, once again, am something of a mystical person, and I harbor the self-reassuring belief that the work of a human will by its nature have a special spark that the product of an algorithm cannot. As the algorithms grow more sophisticated, it is harder to re-assure myself in such a way, but another, perhaps less clearly re-assuring thought emerges—which I do, after much examination, find re-assuring: since our brains are computers, then the fact that a computer can be programmed to do something doesn’t diminish the impressiveness of a human doing it. And of course, we can constantly, dynamically and in real time program ourselves, and our various programs can not only run concurrently, but interact. True, Microsoft Office can do what the latter clause suggests, but not without prompting, and very significantly, not in service of a goal not yet known.

            * The Mozart algorithm and the Schumann algorithm can churn out music in the styles of those composers, but they can’t develop. They can’t evolve. They can’t seek to glorify their creators by exploring into the unknown.

            * The purpose of the foregoing excursis was to shed light on reasons why what could be called the professional audience for new classical music often wants something different from what the lay audience does. The lay audience pays the bills, and so orchestras play what it wants to hear. They deliver the experience that’s wanted by the market. There’s nothing in the slightest wrong with that, as far as it goes. But the market doesn’t want the old music because the new music is bad; it’s enough that the new music is different. And the new music is different because it’s bound to be different. It can’t help but be different. It must be different because it must be new.

            * The previous treatment has intimated that a market for new music does exist. Indeed it does, but it tends to be served by specialist ensembles; a truce has been reached whereby musical museums and musical imaginariums co-exist nearly without meeting. Both are in financial trouble, at least in the United States. But both have always been; they survive, hand-to-mouth, always on emergency footing. We shouldn’t take that for granted, of course. 20 years ago, with hindsight, wasn’t the time to panic. We don’t have hindsight about the present, and it may well be time to panic now.

            * Finally, there are so many ways of being new, and so many ways of being original even without being particularly new (that would be a different essay!) that there is up-to-the-moment classical music for every taste, including quite wonderful music in very gently updated versions of traditional styles.

            For example, I challenge anyone (in a friendly way) who likes 19th-century classical music to not like this:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jzBmQmsGTI

            That was written within the past 10 years.

            [To paraphrase Neil Diamond, an underrated composer of his particular type of music, that took an hour . . . but that's all right!]
               908. Booey Posted: March 04, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 03:25 PM (#5928130)
            snapper #906 - That's exactly what I've always done. I put him up there with the 95-ish WAR guys like Clemente, Ripken, Beltre, Mathews, and Yaz. No shame in that. To me he just looks a bit behind the 100 WAR guys of later eras like Morgan and Pujols, clearly behind the 110 WAR guys like Rickey, Schmidt, Frank Robinson and Mantle, and far behind the latter 120 WAR guys like ARod and Musial.
               909. Sweatpants Posted: March 04, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 03:25 PM (#5928131)
            #899 - Yeah, but that's not an entirely fair way to look at it. In addition to Cobb, Collins lifetime avg of .333 was also well below AL contemporaries Joe Jackson (.356), Tris Speaker (.345), Babe Ruth (.342), Harry Heilmann (.342), George Sisler (.340), and Nap LaJoie (.338). Lots of guys hit for crazy high averages back then.
            Ruth and Heilmann aren't really contemporaries of Collins. They didn't put up monster batting averages/OBPs until the 1920s and weren't the reason for Collins' failure to lead the league. Collins finished second in batting average three times, all to Cobb. He finished second in OBP three times (in the same three years, actually), all to Cobb. If the comparison is instead five batting titles and six OBP titles to three and three, Collins no longer seems like a product of his era or a compiler as much.
            And with Boggs, you're ignoring Kirby Pucket (lifetime avg .318). And Mattingly was a .330 hitter in his prime, so he's not someone to handwave away.
            I didn't ignore Puckett. I forgot him. Mattingly's "prime" is four seasons in which he hit .343, .324, .352, and .327.
            Plus of course, Boggs 5 batting titles came with averages of .361, .368, .357, .363, and .366. Those would've led the league in almost any year post the 1930's, regardless of competition
            Boggs really was the more dominant of the two, in terms of prime batting average and OBP. I think it's up for debate who the greater hitter was, but the BA/OBP crown comparison doesn't do Collins justice, in my opinion.
               910. Rally Posted: March 04, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 03:33 PM (#5928138)
            Boggs didn't have competition for the batting title at the level of Ty Cobb, because he WAS the Ty Cobb of the 1980s.
               911. Mefisto Posted: March 04, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 04:36 PM (#5928168)
            Damn. I was going to say exactly that.
               912. Sweatpants Posted: March 04, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 05:05 PM (#5928182)
            I don't know if I'm underrating Boggs or what. He was a great player for about six or seven seasons. Looking at just his batting average compared to the league's just during that period, Boggs during that run was better than peak Eddie Collins, but he still doesn't measure up to Ty Cobb.

            He also had Fenway Park as his 天津彩票官方开奖 field for all of the seasons in which he was a great player. You can say that he managed to use it in ways that no one else could, but if two players achieved similar value, one in favorable circumstances and one in neutral circumstances, I'd take the latter.
               913. Mefisto Posted: March 04, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 05:10 PM (#5928183)
            Looking at just his batting average compared to the league's just during that period, Boggs during that run was better than peak Eddie Collins, but he still doesn't measure up to Ty Cobb.


            That's because Cobb played against weaker competition and was therefore able to distance himself to a greater degree. That's what Ron J meant on the previous page about the standard deviation. We've known this is true for batting average since the 1980s. It's one of the facts which supports timelining.
               914. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 04, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 06:20 PM (#5928198)
            Very thoughtful, Dr. Vaux.

            (and by the way, snapper, email me if you're ever in the D.C. area, because I would very much like to have this conversation with you).

            I will try. Likewise, if you're in NY, ping me.

            I'll test the email through the site to see if it works.

            edit: email seems to have failed. ping me at "a e g an do lfi at yahoo"
               915. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: March 04, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 06:34 PM (#5928200)
            Dammit, Vaux!!

            I was going to say 907 was one of the best posts I've ever read on this site (non-OG division), but then you completely blew it in literally the very last line by praising Neil Diamond.
               916. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: March 04, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 08:10 PM (#5928214)
            Man, #876 and #907. I'm bookmarking this thread.
               917. PreservedFish Posted: March 04, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 08:21 PM (#5928219)
            Obviously if I'd had the spare 45 minutes, I would've posted essentially the same thing as #907. But I spent my freetime arguing with SBB in another thread. Priorities...
               918. Mefisto Posted: March 04, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 08:39 PM (#5928223)
            On your deathbed, your final thoughts will be "I wish I had spent more time arguing with SBB."
               919. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: March 04, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 09:49 PM (#5928229)
            Will that be right before or right after he receives total consciousness?
               920. Mefisto Posted: March 04, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 09:51 PM (#5928230)
            I hope it's before. If it's after, we're all in trouble.
               921. Jaack Posted: March 04, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 11:29 PM (#5928240)
            Remember kids, if you spend too much time arguing on the internet, your punishment in hell will be to be stuck on a message board with just SBB.
               922. Rally Posted: March 05, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 07:56 AM (#5928261)
            22. Lefty Grove

            Just 3 pitchers left for the top 21 - Roger, Walter, and Satchel
               923. Rally Posted: March 05, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 08:00 AM (#5928262)
            By position:

            C - Gibson
            1B - Gehrig
            2B - Morgan, Hornsby
            3B - Schmidt
            SS - Wagner
            SS/3B/Centaur - ARod
            OF - Charleston, Speaker, Robinson, Mantle, Musial, Cobb, Bonds, Mays, Aaron, Williams
            Ohtani-qualified 2 way player - Babe Ruth
               924. TomH Posted: March 05, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 09:05 AM (#5928267)
            Thanks for the list, Rally. It's a great list. But we luv to quibble, so..

            11 of 22 is OF-heavy
            * Speaker, F Robby, maybe Charleston could go soon
            * I prefer to list Musial as a 1Bman (he played more OF, but he actually played more 1B than LF), becuase he rankes higher that way; I would put him (with league strength adjustment) over Lou

            Given that while Satchel is by FAR the most famous NgLg pitcher (and player overall!) but there is some disagreement that he was the best pitcher, I would prefer him out of the top 20. Heresy, I know. In contrast, I would have Gibson inside the top 10, maybe top 5, as clearly the best-hitting catcher ever, with better defense than Piazza.

               925. Rally Posted: March 05, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 09:46 AM (#5928279)
            Maybe we have more data now than last time I looked at this, but several years back I looked at Satchel's case for best NgLg pitcher, and it was pretty convincing. He had an advantage in run prevention (I think runs allowed were known but not ERA, which is fine by me), and an overwhelming advantage in strikeout rate.

            Also consider that he was a major league caliber pitcher into his 50s. I don't even mean the 3 scoreless innings in 1965. He pitched in AAA from 1956-1958, ages 49-51, and dominated. Easily the best pitcher on the staff. Just about every pitcher from those teams also pitched in the big leagues so it was easy to come up with MLE translations for him. They were excellent and I published those in a Hardball Times Annual several years ago. I have zero doubt he would have still been effective as a swingman in the big leagues, pitching 110-120 innings a year with 10-15 starts and some relief appearances.
               926. Rally Posted: March 05, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 10:00 AM (#5928283)
            Looking at Seamheads, Satchel is #1 in career ERA+ at 170. Next 3 guys are in the 150s but a small number of innings. Among those with 1000 (recorded) innings, the list is:

            170 Satchel
            148 Ray Brown
            147 Dave Brown
            146 Joe Williams (top 100)
            146 Jose Mendez
            143 Willie Foster
            139 Bullet Rogan (top 100, an Ohtani-type)

            In strikeouts per 9 innings, Satchel had 8.8. Next best was 7.6, next best with at least 1000 innings was Williams (6.2). Of the top 100 NgLg pitchers on the Seamheads leader list, Satchel's 2.1 walk rate is 8th. #2 is 1.9. His 4.2 K-BB rate is easily #1 on the list.

            This is a case where the data matches the fame and the legend. He was the best NgLg pitcher, and he may very well have been the single best pitcher to ever take the mound.
               927. Rally Posted: March 05, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 10:10 AM (#5928289)
            Satchel also has the 3rd best ERA+ in MLB history (minimum 300 IP) from age 41 on. Only Clemens and Wilhelm are better, though he's a lost closer to #4 than to the top 2.
               928. Jaack Posted: March 05, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 10:22 AM (#5928290)
            rate him out as living up to his legend. I'd personally be a bit more conservative but he's not out of place with Clemens and Johnson.
               929. TomH Posted: March 05, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 11:33 AM (#5928305)
            Thanks all (925-928); I had not seen data in the past decade, and you've shown we have more now than last I knew. Good stuff!
               930. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: March 05, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 11:52 AM (#5928309)
            Positives from JP's project:

            --reading about players beyond what is captured in BBREF
            --reading from posters who have additional anecdotes to share not personal ones but stories about the players JP didn't list likely because the article cannot be a novel
            --detailing the injustices done to so many players just due to race or other stupid reasons.
            --ability to articulate the pain of someone like Alexander which was really powerful.
            --daily cadence which is super impressive and yes I know the guy is building off of work done previously but still
            --how the posters who just want to ##### about the 'rankings' over time got the message that their posts are not valued so a lot of that stopped
            --how insane baseball was managed, watched, reported whatever a 100 years ago. Read some of this before but getting such a vein rush was really something. Love it.

            And then when you get a player like George Brett who JP really likes and all the KC posters are like, dude's a jerk-treats service people like ####, was pretty hilarious.
               931. alsep73 Posted: March 06, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 09:12 AM (#5928464)
            21. Joe Morgan. To which I say, Joe Morgan should have never written .
               932. Mefisto Posted: March 06, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 09:58 AM (#5928476)
            A bit low for Morgan in my view. I have him at 12; add in 4 remaining pitchers and that leaves him at 16. In addition, I have him ever so slightly above Hornsby, who's still left.
               933. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: March 06, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 10:37 AM (#5928496)
            "In Houston, no one knew who you were. We brought you here and made you a star!" - Tony Perez
               934. Rally Posted: March 06, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 10:54 AM (#5928500)
            With 20 players left I divided them into eras. There's the pre-integration era, early integration (most of career before 1980), and those that I have watched at least most of their careers (1980+). I know, a very personal and specific dividing line.

            I counted Ted and the Man in group 2. A bit arbitrary in that Satchel's (group 1) last game was after Stan or Ted's but going by bulk of great seasons.

            With group one you have 10 players can almost field a real team.

            Satchel and Walter Johnson will alternate on the mound.
            C- Gibson
            1B Gehrig
            2B Hornsby
            SS Wagner
            3B Cobb - only guy out of position, but he is the only RH thrower of the outfielders
            RF Ruth
            CF Speaker
            LF Charleston

            7 Whites, 3 Negro League players.

            With group 2 you have 6 players. All are outfielders.

            Group 4 has 4 players, at different positions counting A-Rod as a SS. Also Bonds, Schmidt, Clemens.
               935. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: March 06, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 12:00 PM (#5928524)
            Need to stop reading the comments in the Morgan article. Concerned about catching estupidovirus

            Just..................................wow
               936. Rally Posted: March 07, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 11:10 AM (#5928711)
            #20 is Frank Robinson, not Mike Schmidt

            Joe mentions Robinson's determination not to make an out after getting knocked down. How to test this...

            I have no way of knowing when Robinson got knocked down (but not HBP), then got up and hit the next pitch hard. But I can look at his career HBP and ask what he did the next time he faced the same pitcher. This might be 2 innings later, or 2 years later. For some of his 198 career HBP, the same pitcher never faced Frank again. But from what I have:

            158 AB, 15 BB, 5 HBP

            278/359/449, 7 天津彩票官方开奖rs

            Not as good as his numbers overall.
               937. John DiFool2 Posted: March 07, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 04:57 PM (#5928759)
            #20 is Frank Robinson, not Mike Schmidt


            My imagination, or does Schmidt not get much credit or attention nowadays?
               938. bbmck Posted: March 07, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 05:37 PM (#5928765)










               939. Howie Menckel Posted: March 07, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 10:35 PM (#5928789)
            how the posters who just want to ##### about the 'rankings' over time got the message that their posts are not valued so a lot of that stopped

            that is one interpretation, anyway.
            another is that cases were fully and effectively made, and any more explanation would seem superfluous.
               940. taxandbeerguy Posted: March 08, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 01:48 AM (#5928797)
            how the posters who just want to ##### about the 'rankings' over time got the message that their posts are not valued so a lot of that stopped
            .

            Not sure if that's the case - it's just that in the past couple weeks as we move toward the pinnacle, the ratings are more closely aligned with each posters personal ratings. I had Alexander at 30, Joe P at 26. F Robby seems a bit high at 20, but I had him at 27. Speaker's not getting timelined as hard as I thought he would. He's in Joe's top 20. There's only two ratings in those whole series that seem forced so far (i.e. differentiate significantly from where I'd have them and possibly a significant majority of other posters). That's DiMaggio at 56 and Seaver at 41. I think RJ and Maddux should be flipped, but it's not anything too egregious. Seaver and Dimaggio should be 10-15 spots higher at the bare minimum. DiMaggio's closing in on 100 WAR with War credit (and is better than Ken Griffey Jr. as much as it pains me to say it) and Seaver's the best pitcher between Grove and Clemens with a WAR and other accolades to boot. He should be in front of Pedro and Mathewson at the very least.
               941. Mefisto Posted: March 08, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 09:59 AM (#5928807)
            I'd add Rickey to the list of those misvalued. 24 is probably 10 spots too low.
               942. reech Posted: March 08, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 11:39 AM (#5928814)
            #20 was a tie-
            Frank Robinson AND Mike Schmidt !!!!!!!
               943. bbmck Posted: March 08, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 03:16 PM (#5928836)
            A. Duane Kuiper
            B. Buck O'Neil
            C. Cap Anson
            D. Lisa Fernandez
               944. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: March 08, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 04:45 PM (#5928848)
            The last three players have had a boomer comment explosion which totally blew apart my previous summary. These posters saw Morgan and Robinson and Schmidt play which hey great for them but especially Morgan the reaction is "He is NOT THAT GOOD OMG!!!!!!!!!!"

            The Morgan thing I give other posters credit for not being too hard on these people losing their #### over the author thinking, I think correctly, that Morgan was one of the best players ever. What was stunning is that a set of Reds fans post repeatedly "Bench was better" and then a poster posts a video of Bench stating Morgan was the best player he ever saw and that he was better than Bench. For these posters who are repeatedly telling everyone to stick WAR up their ass you would think that vid might mean something. Absolutely not. No response. Just more posts that Morgan was pretty good but not great.

            The list forecasters are starting to ##### because what about Cap Anson, what about Paul Waner, what about, what about, what about. This pardon me for assuming but cmon it's pretty obvious old white dude fascination with players for 100 years ago is completely ###### up. I guess this goes with the not being down with evolution?? So they are consistent. Which I guess good for them.

            Thanks for reading.
               945. TomH Posted: March 08, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 07:28 PM (#5928880)
            944. that was a great post... until you made the false parallel with evolution.
               946. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: March 08, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 07:38 PM (#5928881)
            945--the nudged me to make that post.
               947. Rally Posted: March 09, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 07:28 AM (#5928928)
            No #19 after the tie. 18- Tris Speaker
               948. TomH Posted: March 09, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 08:36 AM (#5928930)
            assessment, made without comment:

            top 17 remaining players broken by 1895-1955 and 1956-2015 (split by bulk of careers)

            11 from earlier era
            6 from modern (Mantle Mays Aaron Bonds Clemens Rodriguez)
               949. Rally Posted: March 09, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 10:27 AM (#5928941)
            Looking at the top 20, it's 12-8 in favor of the earlier group.

            If you wanted to even things out the best candidates to move up are Seaver, Maddux, Unit, Morgan, Pujols, and Rickey.
               950. Howie Menckel Posted: March 09, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 10:39 AM (#5928946)
            If you wanted to even things out

            but that would be no fun! Seaver wore uniform No. 41, so......

            well, the acolytes will explain it better
               951. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: March 09, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 02:19 PM (#5929019)
            I haven't been able to keep track of all the grievances, but isn't Seaver the only one that seems way off? And not in an "I'd put Rickey at 14 instead of 24" kind of way, but like "there is no way a knowledgeable fan could rank this player here."
               952. Booey Posted: March 09, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 02:21 PM (#5929020)
            #951 - Also DiMaggio for sure.
               953. Ziggy is done with Dominican discotheques Posted: March 09, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 02:43 PM (#5929029)
            OUTRAGE. No way DiMaggio is all the way down at 951. I'd say he should be about 895 spots above that!
               954. Hank Gillette Posted: March 09, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 03:13 PM (#5929045)
            that is one interpretation, anyway.
            another is that cases were fully and effectively made, and any more explanation would seem superfluous.


            When has anyone with a gripe ever done that?
               955. Hank Gillette Posted: March 09, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 03:18 PM (#5929047)
            #20 was a tie-
            Frank Robinson AND Mike Schmidt !!!!!!!

            No #19 after the tie. 18- Tris Speaker

            Shouldn’t Robinson and Schmidt have been tied for 19th, not 20th? I don’t know if there is a rule, but that’s the way I have always seen it.

            You never see two contestants tied for #2, with no #1.
               956. JAHV Posted: March 09, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 03:30 PM (#5929052)
            Shouldn’t Robinson and Schmidt have been tied for 19th, not 20th? I don’t know if there is a rule, but that’s the way I have always seen it.

            You never see two contestants tied for #2, with no #1.


            Most lists read go up, so when you see a tie at a certain number, the next number is skipped. In this case Robinson and Schmidt were tied at 20 because they both wore #20. And the next number on the list was skipped, which is 19 because the count is going down instead. It doesn't follow normal convention, but neither does Posnanski's ranking system. That doesn't bother me at all, since I'm only there for the writing. The numbers associated with the names are slightly interesting, but not the main thrust of the exercise.
               957. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: March 09, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 03:58 PM (#5929067)
            #951 - Also DiMaggio for sure.

            If you're ranking them by fame, sure. But in terms of pure value I don't think it's clear at all that he's underrated on this list. Adrian Beltre is a few spots ahead at 52 and has an 18 WAR lead. Even with war credit, it's not likely DiMaggio beats him. Are both of them being massively underrated?
               958. Rally Posted: March 09, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 04:45 PM (#5929076)

            Shouldn’t Robinson and Schmidt have been tied for 19th, not 20th? I don’t know if there is a rule, but that’s the way I have always seen it.


            But they didn’t wear #19!
               959. bbmck Posted: March 09, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 05:14 PM (#5929091)
            Compared to the Career WAR list (18th on Career WAR Lou Gehrig 112.4 - 18th on Poz 100 Tris Speaker 134 = -21.6):

            107 - Pop Lloyd, 84.3 - Buck Leonard, 80.7 - Smokey Joe Williams, 72.9 - Cool Papa Bell, 72.8 - Sadaharu Oh, 71.1 - Bullet Joe Rogan, 56 - Monte Irvin

            34.1 - Mike Trout
            33.9 - Roy Campanella
            31.6 - Yogi Berra
            31.4 - Jackie Robinson
            28.0 - Sandy Koufax

            25.4 - Johnny Bench
            20.8 - Hank Greenberg
            20.5 - Bob Feller
            15.5 - Mariano Rivera
            12.6 - Mike Piazza

            12.0 - Pedro Martinez
            12.0 - Ernie Banks
            11.6 - Max Scherzer
            10.8 - Ichiro Suzuki
            10.8 - Willie McCovey

            -10.2 - Fergie Jenkins
            -10.3 - Steve Carlton
            -11.3 - Adrian Beltre
            -11.9 - Gaylord Perry
            -12.1 - Pete Alexander

            -12.4 - Mike Mussina
            -12.8 - Warren Spahn
            -12.9 - Nap Lajoie
            -15.6 - Tom Seaver
            -18.1 - Bert Blyleven

            -21.6 - Tris Speaker
            -22.9 - Eddie Collins
            -23.0 - Phil Niekro
            -42.6 - Kid Nichols
            -67.0 - Cy Young

            Jimmie Foxx is the only player so far with the same Poz 100 and Career WAR rank.
               960. alsep73 Posted: March 10, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 10:16 AM (#5929181)
            17. Rogers Hornsby. The essay opens with a delightful list of things people said about him, including:

            Sportswriter John B. Sheridan: “He is, as the French say, deficient in the social relation.”

            Hall of Famer Travis Jackson: “He cares little for what anyone says, and still less what they think.”

            St. Louis Browns pitcher Les Tietje: “Now there was a p-r-i-c-k.”

            Sportswriter Lee Allen: “Subtle as a belch.”

            Journalist Westbrook Pegler: “He has go-to-hell eyes.”

            Hall of Famer Satchel Paige: “If Mr. Hornsby had known as much about hitting as he thought he knew about pitching, he’d have held all the records.”

            Jimmy Dugan in “A League of Their Own:” “Rogers Hornsby was my manager, and he called me a talking pile of pig @*($#*. And that was when my parents drove all the way down from Michigan to see me play.”
               961. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: March 11, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 08:22 AM (#5929390)
            A-Rod is 16:

            He's a player with more wins above replacement than any position player of the last 50 years who is not named Barry Bonds.

            He is a player who, it has been reported, has not one but two paintings of himself as a centaur.

            How can you clean up the A-Rod story? Which parts would you leave out?
               962. Rally Posted: March 11, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 08:35 AM (#5929394)
            16. A-Rod

            Here's an experiment I looked at concerning batters before the liveball, and comparing them to later players. Players who could have hit for power would have looked much better by OPS+ in the liveball era, while players who weren't going to hit for power no matter what look much better in deadball. Eddie Collins and Honus Wagner both played to age 43 and are fairly close in WAR (131-124). Honus playing in the 20s or 30s would almost certainly have become a 天津彩票官方开奖run hitter. But that just wan't going to happen for the smaller Collins, whose career did last through the 1920s and he didn't hit many 天津彩票官方开奖rs late in his career.

            Here's one way to demonstrate. Take modern baseball, and assume that players only hit 1/4 as many 天津彩票官方开奖rs. Every lost HR is turned into a single, double, or triple at each player's proportion of these events. Walks are unchanged for the experiment, and therefore so is OBP.

            Take 2001 Barry Bonds. Instead of 73 天津彩票官方开奖rs he only hits 18, though he does go from 32 to 53 doubles. His SLG drops from .863 to .568. Doing this for the league drops the overall SLG from .425 to .357. OPS+ for Bonds goes from 259 to 215.

            Now do the same for Juan Pierre that season, when he hit .327 with only 2 天津彩票官方开奖rs. Pierre had a sub-100 OPS+ that season due to the Colorado park factor, but his base OPS+ would have been 112 had he put up the exact same stats in a neutral park. His stats change little with a dead baseball, but since the league SLG drops, Pierre's OPS+ changes from 112 to 129 in this experiment.

            This may not matter to some people as Collins and Wagner played under the conditions of their time and the stats do reflect the value of their play in that time. But it's something I at least want to think about when comparing players from different eras.
               963. Rally Posted: March 11, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 08:38 AM (#5929395)
            How can you clean up the A-Rod story? Which parts would you leave out?


            Definitely cannot leave out the horse parts.

            I hope as a compromise with the anti-steroid zealots who vote for the HOF that we can agree on inducting him, but the picture of A-Rod as centaur winds up on his HOF plaque.
               964. Mefisto Posted: March 11, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 11:23 AM (#5929453)
            JMHO, but I'd put ARod in the top 10.
               965. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: March 11, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 12:33 PM (#5929486)
            This may not matter to some people as Collins and Wagner played under the conditions of their time and the stats do reflect the value of their play in that time. But it's something I at least want to think about when comparing players from different eras.

            I've seen a version of this argument on behalf of Vizquel's HOF candidacy. If he was borderline rather than well below, then I could see it helping.

            I do agree that it's worth considering when doing an all-time ranking since we're considering greatness as opposed to value compared to your peers, which is how I view HOF worthiness.
               966. bbmck Posted: March 11, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 01:50 PM (#5929523)
            From 1920 to 1934 the Yankees struck out 10+ times in a game 33 times, 8 of those are extra inning games.
            From 1920 to 1934, 1032 RH Starting Pitchers faced 30+ Yankees and 259 struck out at least 5 batters, 257 faced 39+ batters and 83 of those struck out 5+ batters. 412 LH Starting pitchers faced 30+ batters and 101 with 5+ K, 93 faced 39+ batters and 25 with 5+ K.

            From 1993 to 2007 the Giants struck out 10+ times in a game 286 times, 58 of those are extra inning games.
            From 1993 to 2007, 339 RH Starting Pitchers faced 30+ Giants and 202 struck out at least 5 batters, Bobby Jones 9 K and Armando Reynoso 8 K faced 39 batters in CG wins, Barry Bonds batted 4th both those games and checking all 11 games with 37+ BF he never faced the same RH pitcher 5 times as a Giant. 144 LH Starting pitchers faced 30+ batters and 68 with 5+ K, Kenny Rogers 9 K and Greg Swindell 2 K in CG wins, Mark Mulder with 5 K in 8.2 IP faced 39 batters, Barry gets pulled for PH Stan Javier with the Giants down 9 after 3 PA, a single and a HR against Rogers, Barry 0 for 3 against Swindell and gets replaced in the field by Mike Benjamin with the Giants down 11 and bats clean up against Mulder and checking all 7 games with 37+ BF he never faced the same LH pitcher 5 times as a Giant.

            If Barry gets another 200 singles and 40 doubles with an extra 800 balls in play he hits 322/463/635, logically his OPS+ would go down since the rest of the league as a % gains more OBP with about half as many K.
               967. JJ1986 Posted: March 12, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 07:13 AM (#5929828)
            15 is Josh Gibson, who I was thinking would be top-5.
               968. alsep73 Posted: March 12, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 07:15 AM (#5929829)
            I assume Charleston will be the highest-ranked Negro Leaguer, and will probably finish very high overall.
               969. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: March 12, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 08:37 AM (#5929840)
            Gibson’s later years were agonizing. In 1943, when Gibson was just 31, he was admitted to the hospital after suffering what the papers called a nervous breakdown. In truth, he was diagnosed with a brain tumor. He came out of the hospital after 10 days, but the pain never dissipated. For the rest of his life, he drank heavily and smoked marijuana to ease that pain.

            But he also never stopped hitting. In fact, his greatest offensive year might have been 1943. Seamheads estimates he hit .441 with 112 RBIs and 101 runs scored in 78 games. The next year, he smashed a 440-foot double in the East-West All-Star Game. In 1945, he is credited with winning his final batting title. And even in 1946, when he was a shell of himself (this after he spent weeks in a sanitarium in Puerto Rico), he still crushed several 天津彩票官方开奖 runs of such length that the white newspapers mentioned them — 450 footer at Forbes Field, 500 footer in St. Louis, a ball that went over the roof in Philadelphia’s Shibe Park.

            He died a few months later, in January 1947, at his mother’s 天津彩票官方开奖. He was just 35 years old. “Gibson’s career,” the Pittsburgh Sun-Telegraph wrote, “was a story of ponderous hitting of 天津彩票官方开奖 runs and line drives which broke up many games.”


            I had also assumed Gibson would rank higher, maybe 10th. But what really separates the players at this level is career length more than peak. If Gibson's last good season was at 33, having him here sounds about right.
               970. Blastin Posted: March 12, 天津彩票官方开奖 at 03:20 PM (#5930052)
            So does he just finish now or does he wait until opening day is actually approaching again? I sure hope he just finishes.
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